Comments on: Religion slowly dying out http://www.crispinhull.com.au/2009/02/07/religion-slowly-dying-out/ Journalism and other writing Mon, 26 Jul 2010 06:41:09 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0 By: Nick Newman http://www.crispinhull.com.au/2009/02/07/religion-slowly-dying-out/comment-page-1/#comment-150 Nick Newman Tue, 03 Mar 2009 13:12:25 +0000 http://www.crispinhull.com.au/?p=9175#comment-150 Your “’No religion’ ticks more boxes in this secular society of ours” on page B7 of the February 7 edition of The Canberra Times triggered memories of discussions with the ACT statistician last millennium. Believe that during a lecture on the misuse of statistics decades ago that the difference in census questions between Australia and New Zealand was quoted as an example. The comparison between the religiosity of New Zealand and Australia is a case of comparing apples with oranges. It is understood that the New Zealand census poses the question - What church do you belong to? The Australian census asks – What religion are you? To compare answers to different questions is false epidemiology. Possibly a question along the lines of – To which church or charity do you pay your tithes [10% of salary]? – would result in a more limited response. As far as I am aware it has been impossible to declare oneself a Christian in the Australian Public Service or Defence Force for some half a century. I, for one, would be happy to be described as a Christian due to a broad Christian upbringing. However, in no way would I wish to be associated with any “God bothering” organisation. I suspect that many of those brought up in the teachings of the Jewish or Islam traditions would not want to be associated with their sects either. According to the ACT statistician the “unacceptability” of Christianity per se as a religion within the Australian bureaucracy has been caused by successive generations of Australian Church hierarchies preferring accounting fuzziness to cover declining attendances and to retain semblance of community spiritual and moral leadership. Some sceptics have argued that by raising sects to religion status in Australia it confirms that these sects have diverted from Christianity. Perhaps the census religious questions need revision or alternatively be accorded due relevance and be excised. Regards, Your “’No religion’ ticks more boxes in this secular society of ours” on page B7 of the February 7 edition of The Canberra Times triggered memories of discussions with the ACT statistician last millennium.

Believe that during a lecture on the misuse of statistics decades ago that the difference in census questions between Australia and New Zealand was quoted as an example. The comparison between the religiosity of New Zealand and Australia is a case of comparing apples with oranges. It is understood that the New Zealand census poses the question – What church do you belong to? The Australian census asks – What religion are you? To compare answers to different questions is false epidemiology. Possibly a question along the lines of – To which church or charity do you pay your tithes [10% of salary]? – would result in a more limited response.

As far as I am aware it has been impossible to declare oneself a Christian in the Australian Public Service or Defence Force for some half a century. I, for one, would be happy to be described as a Christian due to a broad Christian upbringing. However, in no way would I wish to be associated with any “God bothering” organisation. I suspect that many of those brought up in the teachings of the Jewish or Islam traditions would not want to be associated with their sects either.

According to the ACT statistician the “unacceptability” of Christianity per se as a religion within the Australian bureaucracy has been caused by successive generations of Australian Church hierarchies preferring accounting fuzziness to cover declining attendances and to retain semblance of community spiritual and moral leadership.

Some sceptics have argued that by raising sects to religion status in Australia it confirms that these sects have diverted from Christianity.

Perhaps the census religious questions need revision or alternatively be accorded due relevance and be excised.

Regards,

]]> By: R Lyne http://www.crispinhull.com.au/2009/02/07/religion-slowly-dying-out/comment-page-1/#comment-148 R Lyne Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:47:15 +0000 http://www.crispinhull.com.au/?p=9175#comment-148 Go unto all nations Whenever Crispin Hull writes about Christianity (''No religion ticks more boxes in this secular society of ours'', February 7, pB7), he gets it wrong. By chance, he almost got something right when he said, ''It is in the nature of religion to proselytise''. The truth is that some people are chosen by God to be evangelists. Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations. (Matt. 28:19) Crispin Hull, along with Andrew Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, misleads his readers. Ideally, they should leave Christianity alone, and write only about a subject they know. R.Lyne, Kingston Go unto all nations

Whenever Crispin Hull writes about Christianity (”No religion ticks more boxes in this secular society of ours”, February 7, pB7), he gets it wrong.

By chance, he almost got something right when he said, ”It is in the nature of religion to proselytise”. The truth is that some people are chosen by God to be evangelists. Jesus told His disciples to go and make disciples of all nations. (Matt. 28:19)

Crispin Hull, along with Andrew Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens, misleads his readers.

Ideally, they should leave Christianity alone, and write only about a subject they know.

R.Lyne, Kingston

]]> By: Mark Dawson http://www.crispinhull.com.au/2009/02/07/religion-slowly-dying-out/comment-page-1/#comment-115 Mark Dawson Sun, 08 Feb 2009 00:59:27 +0000 http://www.crispinhull.com.au/?p=9175#comment-115 Crispin Excellent article but I have one criticism - there could potentially be just as many non-believers ticking that box on the census for the rest of their church going family as visa-versa. Still it is good to see non-belief on the rise and it eventually may cause the Government to consider removing all the tax breaks religious organisations currently receive. Make church user pay I say. Regards Mark Dawson Crispin

Excellent article but I have one criticism – there could potentially be just as many non-believers ticking that box on the census for the rest of their church going family as visa-versa.

Still it is good to see non-belief on the rise and it eventually may cause the Government to consider removing all the tax breaks religious organisations currently receive. Make church user pay I say.

Regards

Mark Dawson

]]> By: David Swanton http://www.crispinhull.com.au/2009/02/07/religion-slowly-dying-out/comment-page-1/#comment-113 David Swanton Sun, 08 Feb 2009 00:39:33 +0000 http://www.crispinhull.com.au/?p=9175#comment-113 Crispin Congrats on an excellent article in today's Canberra Times. You might have seen my op ed, also in Canberra Times, on 29 October 2008 that pushed hard on religion: http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/drop-parliamentary-prayer-and-adopt-secular-ways/1346072.aspx?storypage=0 If we continue to express such views, then little by little, people might appreciate that religion isn't what many religious leaders make it out to be. Regards David Swanton Crispin

Congrats on an excellent article in today’s Canberra Times.

You might have seen my op ed, also in Canberra Times, on 29 October 2008 that pushed hard on religion:

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/opinion/editorial/general/drop-parliamentary-prayer-and-adopt-secular-ways/1346072.aspx?storypage=0

If we continue to express such views, then little by little, people might appreciate that religion isn’t what many religious leaders make it out to be.

Regards

David Swanton

]]> By: William Fraser http://www.crispinhull.com.au/2009/02/07/religion-slowly-dying-out/comment-page-1/#comment-67 William Fraser Sat, 07 Feb 2009 05:43:40 +0000 http://www.crispinhull.com.au/?p=9175#comment-67 Dear Crispin Hull, I subscribe to the Canberra Times to get local information and read your material frequently., but really prefer other newspapers due to the poor quality of much material in this unfortunate publication. Nothing seems to rile you more than religion, or perhaps the Queen. But I would like to make a few comments. You frequently claim no need for “a god”. However you need to attempt a definition of “a god”. The Oxford and other dictionaries provide a collection of suggested meanings including, an idol, an adored or admired person, and something or someone that motivates or dominates a person’s life or actions. People adopt such gods to accord direction and meaning in their lives, which otherwise would be quite purposeless. Others seek power, prestige, money, advancement in the public service and then drive themselves relentlessly towards these goals. I may be entirely incorrect, but it seems to me that your gods include leftist politics, humanism, or some other sort of materialist “ism”, to which you are fully entitled. However others might seek a religious god, not because they have been indoctrinated, but because they see a spiritual side to life, which can hardly be denied, or they find their own abilities inadequate and find it necessary to seek resources beyond themselves. The question for debate is to which gods will provide needful satisfaction, address life’s difficulties or assist in finding meaning and purpose in life. I am fascinated by the way atheists idolise Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchings after their two recent publications. However intelligent people will not formulate an opinion solely on the basis of two publications but will read very widely, including contrary opinions, which are many. I am currently reading The Case for a Creator, by Lee Strobel, a former legal editor of The Chicago Tribune who was an atheist but became a Christian. I find this work quite boring notwithstanding he quotes Dawkins occasionally. There is really no need for a number of biologists, physicists, geologists, astronomers etc. to advise that their disciplines do not provide all the answers about the universe and that further research is necessary. They also claim that Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is deficient and there is no evidence of the supposed prebiotic soup. However these claims are surely self evident. Furthermore, it is better when anyone is condemning religion to provide some evidence that they understand what you are decrying, so that any observer can test the genuineness or otherwise of their claims. There is plenty of material available for research into the practical application of the Christian religion to assist in its evaluation. For example the contemporary writings of award winning auditor Philip Yancey, Where is God when it hurts? Prayer, does it make any difference? What’s so amazing about Grace? The Christian religion has always claimed that to find it, you have to practice it, it was intended to be an assistance in daily living, not just a subject for theoretical musings. Yes indeed, there are dozens of secular charities. But I am not aware that the Humanist Society operates any schools, hospitals or orphanages. Which ones were there first? In Australia, the Christian church has over the years, initiated many social welfare enterprises, most of which were started before secular or humanist agencies even recognised there was a problem. Foe example, the Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia, a national icon which provides health care for over 80% of Australia in this day and age, resulted from a mission commenced by Rev. Dr. John Flynn in Beltana, South Australia in 1911. There were many interests, both secular and government, which ridiculed the suggestion that sick people could be carried in an aeroplane, or that hospitals could exist in the outback, or that a radio signal for help could be conveyed 400 miles. However John Flynn took the grace of God in heart and mind and persevered, notwithstanding that it was 17 May 1928 before the first mercy flight took off from Cloncurry. To this day, the RFDS relies on public support for most of the finance to continue its activities with minimal assistance from the Government. In Canberra, the Christian church, particularly Canberra Baptist Church took up the issue of aged care at a very early stage before this was accorded general concern. Canberra a city of enormous human need despite claims of superior enlightenment and the churches will have a continuing role to play if this need is to be in any measure, addressed. The Christian church often obtains bad press because the human element dominates in a manner that might not even be pleasing to God. However a love of humanity is important and I wish you well as you continue to research these issues. _____________________________________________________________________________________ Dear Crispin Hull,
I subscribe to the Canberra Times to get local information and read your material frequently., but really prefer other newspapers due to the poor quality of much material in this unfortunate publication.
Nothing seems to rile you more than religion, or perhaps the Queen. But I would like to make a few comments.
You frequently claim no need for “a god”. However you need to attempt a definition of “a god”. The Oxford and other dictionaries provide a collection of suggested meanings including, an idol, an adored or admired person, and something or someone that motivates or dominates a person’s life or actions. People adopt such gods to accord direction and meaning in their lives, which otherwise would be quite purposeless. Others seek power, prestige, money, advancement in the public service and then drive themselves relentlessly towards these goals. I may be entirely incorrect, but it seems to me that your gods include leftist politics, humanism, or some other sort of materialist “ism”, to which you are fully entitled. However others might seek a religious god, not because they have been indoctrinated, but because they see a spiritual side to life, which can hardly be denied, or they find their own abilities inadequate and find it necessary to seek resources beyond themselves. The question for debate is to which gods will provide needful satisfaction, address life’s difficulties or assist in finding meaning and purpose in life.
I am fascinated by the way atheists idolise Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchings after their two recent publications. However intelligent people will not formulate an opinion solely on the basis of two publications but will read very widely, including contrary opinions, which are many. I am currently reading The Case for a Creator, by Lee Strobel, a former legal editor of The Chicago Tribune who was an atheist but became a Christian. I find this work quite boring notwithstanding he quotes Dawkins occasionally. There is really no need for a number of biologists, physicists, geologists, astronomers etc. to advise that their disciplines do not provide all the answers about the universe and that further research is necessary. They also claim that Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is deficient and there is no evidence of the supposed prebiotic soup. However these claims are surely self evident. Furthermore, it is better when anyone is condemning religion to provide some evidence that they understand what you are decrying, so that any observer can test the genuineness or otherwise of their claims. There is plenty of material available for research into the practical application of the Christian religion to assist in its evaluation. For example the contemporary writings of award winning auditor Philip Yancey, Where is God when it hurts? Prayer, does it make any difference? What’s so amazing about Grace? The Christian religion has always claimed that to find it, you have to practice it, it was intended to be an assistance in daily living, not just a subject for theoretical musings.
Yes indeed, there are dozens of secular charities. But I am not aware that the Humanist Society operates any schools, hospitals or orphanages. Which ones were there first? In Australia, the Christian church has over the years, initiated many social welfare enterprises, most of which were started before secular or humanist agencies even recognised there was a problem. Foe example, the Royal Flying Doctor Service of Australia, a national icon which provides health care for over 80% of Australia in this day and age, resulted from a mission commenced by Rev. Dr. John Flynn in Beltana, South Australia in 1911. There were many interests, both secular and government, which ridiculed the suggestion that sick people could be carried in an aeroplane, or that hospitals could exist in the outback, or that a radio signal for help could be conveyed 400 miles. However John Flynn took the grace of God in heart and mind and persevered, notwithstanding that it was 17 May 1928 before the first mercy flight took off from Cloncurry. To this day, the RFDS relies on public support for most of the finance to continue its activities with minimal assistance from the Government. In Canberra, the Christian church, particularly Canberra Baptist Church took up the issue of aged care at a very early stage before this was accorded general concern. Canberra a city of enormous human need despite claims of superior enlightenment and the churches will have a continuing role to play if this need is to be in any measure, addressed.
The Christian church often obtains bad press because the human element dominates in a manner that might not even be pleasing to God. However a love of humanity is important and I wish you well as you continue to research these issues.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

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